Catch Todd Hartley on the #PirateBroadcast
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Russ Johns 0:00
Welcome to the #PirateBroadcast where we interview #Interestingpeople doing #interestingthings where you can expand your connections, your community. #Kindnessiscool and #smilesarefree. Let's get this party started.
I'm super excited about the #piratebroadcast today because it's a wonderful Wednesday, and we're going to rock it out and with #thePiratecommunity, and I just wanted to thank you for being here and the opportunity to connect and collaborate in the community. It's amazing to watch this thing unfold. We're almost at 200 episodes, been doing this for less than a year.
I just wanted to make sure that you understand how much I appreciate you and for your being here supporting the community interacting and everything that goes along with that. Today I have another amazing, interesting guest doing #interestingthings. We're going to talk about the story, the backstory and all of the journey that goes along with it. Todd Good morning. How are you this fine day?
Todd Hartley 1:03
Good morning, Russ, great to spend time with you just in the interest of full disclosure. For those that are watching, I had a little skin cancer removed from a couple spots. I made the decision that this little thing is not going to limit me. I don't care about vanity, I carry an enormous amount of value. I'm super excited to do this with us.
Russ Johns 1:23
Well, we're both here in Arizona, and you're in Scottsdale, you're like on the opposite side of Phoenix. then I am and I'm on the west side over in Sun City. That's one of the things that we have to as much sunshine as we have to be aware of it and take care of it. I applaud your efforts. Thank you so much for being here. I'm a fan of yours. Some of the work that you've done is amazing. Like you've won awards, your Tony Robbins organization. Your sales trainer, you're in embedded in some of these activities. I want to take us back to How you started out in video because you're rocking it video man, your agency and everything is the wire buzz is making the buzz is we can say that right?
Todd Hartley 2:13
Russ Johns 2:15
Talk to us about the beginnings.
Todd Hartley 2:17
Yeah, I was at a talk show host back in the day 1999 k FYI, up until about 2004. I launched a new site that was focused on Phoenix news. In fact, that was the name Phoenix news. I owned it. This was right around the time when radio stations were just starting to build the website. They were just getting comfortable with the idea. I remember remember that Google announced that it was going to roll out Google News, which, for me is a really interesting moment in my life. I remember the date. I'll remember it for the rest of my life, September 22 2002, because it changed the trajectory of my life. I got married. That day and Google News was launched.
What happened was, Google said in order for you to be selected yet have a team of news contributors, it can't just be one person, but I was a solopreneur at this point. So anytime john mccain was in studio or the governor and Apollo Tonto or the mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon, I would get them to be a weekly contributor to my new site. Before I knew it, I got indexed by Google before the Arizona Republic, and I was generating 36 million visitors a year on zero ad dollars. My whole career was born on that one little tactic, right.
Russ Johns 3:38
Todd Hartley 3:39
right, talking about right place at the right time.
Russ Johns 3:41
Todd Hartley 3:42
Also having my eyes open, recognizing that I didn't qualify as one of their organizations, but if I made modifications, I was pristinely qualified. Before I knew it, I Heart Radio Clear Channel hired me to go out to LA to run digital for seven of their largest National talk shows and a career was born. Now to get you to the question of how did I get into video. When I was I Heart Radio, part of my job was to look into the database of 100 million people that were coming to the app looking for audio. I noticed that anytime we did something with video, it was getting 10 times the results of any content we were creating. This was like 2003. I planted my flag and video and thought when bandwidth becomes available, I want to be the big dog in that space because it's going to be an unstoppable force for business.
Russ Johns 4:32
Yeah, I want to step back. We have a unique intersection in our lives together that you may not realize is I worked for the acapella group in Seattle. They own the Sonics a few radio stations up there some some of these sports stations that you probably are familiar with. In 2002 when they were purchased by Claire channel. After a 15 year career, I was rejected.
I was a communications major Rector at the corporate level, taking care of all their circuits and services backhauls all their radio broadcast signals, all of that stuff. Claire channel says, Yeah, have a nice day. Your injection into Claire channel and my rejection from her channel happened in 2002 and I got divorced in 2002. You got married.
Todd Hartley 5:25
It's crazy. Right
Russ Johns 5:26
Now a couple of minor details that cross
Todd Hartley 5:30
How the world intersects is really unbelievable.
Russ Johns 5:33
Yeah, It's just like, wow, Mind blown. Here's the thing is that Claire channel's premise and their strategy in their business model was to consolidate these transmitters and bring everything together into a uniform platform where they can actually broadcast and they saw the future. I mean I understood their model, I understood what they were going for. All of these small stations that they purchased, and had the idea that they could actually stream to all of these transmitters, and then all of a sudden their overhead went down and everything else. The challenge that I don't think they saw coming, though, was the idea that the internet and what you mentioned, when bandwidth became available, and all of a sudden, everybody transitioned from transmitters to the internet
Todd Hartley 6:29
Right? It didn't matter anymore.
Russ Johns 6:31
It didn't matter anymore. Video is the perfect for it. In fact, even when I was in Houston, I was transmitting, I was broadcasting from an iPad, and using sports announcers to broadcast High School varsity sports to the transmitters in Houston.
Todd Hartley 6:51
Russ Johns 6:51
Using the same model, and you bring back a lot of memories, and
Todd Hartley 6:58
You remember the Jim Rohn Show
Russ Johns 7:01
Todd Hartley 7:03
Jim was one of my clients at I Heart Radio Clear Channel for four years. He was one of the seven shows that I got to work on one of the coolest things ever was we had we had a team that would write articles every day for Jim and for all these other shows. Whenever there was a celebrity or an athlete in studio, my job would be to go in and capture those photos and bring them back to my team. So we could write the articles and publish it and push them out. Just being around all those star athletes and being able to have that experience was really remarkable for me.
Russ Johns 7:37
Oh, yeah. Well, I was working at the corporate office at all these, everybody would come in the radio stations. We had four radio stations right there, downtown, in the Seattle market. Anyway, fast forward video, all of a sudden, you're saying hey, when bandwidth becomes available, I'm planting flag. I'm getting into video because it has a definite impact on traffic.
Todd Hartley 8:06
Russ Johns 8:06
Talk us about that journey and how you walk through it.
Todd Hartley 8:10
Well, I've always been early and is a curse and a blessing. I had to teach people in 1999 why they need to have a website and I got a lot of doors slammed in my face. Then by 2007, I was teaching people why they need SEO and I got a lot of doors slammed in my face. By 2010 I'm preaching outright the good gospel of why business needs to be using video and people didn't want to hear it. You're like early adopter. I've always been and it's a major curse.
In fact, it makes you feel like you are. You are from a different world. It also makes you feel like like you're a little bit crazy because you just it's I'm a futurist. It's easy for me to see the trends very early. As such I jump in with both feet before The market notices it. Video is such a remarkable tool. We're seeing its rapid adoption across business now, more than ever, because the access to prospects has been denied. Businesses still need to figure out how to pivot in order to prosper. All of a sudden, what I've been spearheading for the last decade just became trendy when COVID happened.
Russ Johns 9:24
Todd Hartley 9:26
All of a sudden, I like, it was one of those weird moments where I'm like, you know, now everybody sees it.
Russ Johns 9:33
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I've been on video forever.
Todd Hartley 9:37
Russ Johns 9:38
I've been teaching and preaching this fact that you are the media. If you want to be seen, be heard, be talked about. You have to get in front of an audience and talk about your story, talk about your message, be present, and be consistent out there. For myself, I taught podcasting. I was, it was One of the first podcast movements, teaching workshops on podcasting, and broadcasting. Then I'm thinking to myself, well, I could just shoot a camera, convert it to a podcast, and then do the transcription and put it out there. So I've built systems around that. That's the whole premise of the pirate broadcast and what it is. Then I thought, well, I want to do this for other people, because a lot of people are overwhelmed by the technology. If they could show up, turn the camera on and have a conversation like this.
Todd Hartley 10:38
Russ Johns 10:38
Then have content around it forward in advance, and afterwards. I mean, it's it's a program it's nothing more than broker radio, right
Todd Hartley 10:49
Russ Johns 10:50
It's like, okay, let's put the system together. Let's build some platforms and put it together. That's #thepiratesyndicate. That was born before COVID hit and it's still going and I just see it as the future and a methodology to put this together in video format. There are some challenges which I want to ask you about is so what was the biggest challenge for adoption in video other than I don't look good on camera. I don't like the way I sound. I don't like the way all of those rejections and excuses
Todd Hartley 11:28
Yeah. Is the question about what is the biggest challenge from an individual or a corporation?
Russ Johns 11:33
Yeah. Let's start with the individual. Then we move into the corporation.
Todd Hartley 11:37
The individual is I don't like how I look and I don't have value to offer. I don't have a camera.
Russ Johns 11:44
What am I going to talk?
Todd Hartley 11:45
Right, and what are we going to talk about? All of those are ridiculous. I mean, it's imperative that I'm on camera today because I don't like how I look. I teach people all day long to put yourself in front of the camera, develop a relationship, make eye contact, and then Amazing things will happen because you'll be in a magnet, and people will start coming to you needing help that you can solve for them. I love that part the I don't have a camera. Look, these cameras are so cheap. You got one right here. This is pretty damn good use what you got, right?
Russ Johns 12:17
Todd Hartley 12:18
If people listen to the wisdom, the sage advice that they're giving on a daily basis to people, that is the core of what their message is going to be. We all have unique value. We're all gurus in our own place. The sooner we realize that we can be teaching what we're learning along the way to help lift up other people. Then all of a sudden we get past the whole I'm not good enough approach.
Russ Johns 12:45
Yeah, absolutely. I love to remind people that it's no different than waiting in line. There's gonna be somebody in front of you. There's gonna be somebody in the back of you. As long as you like you said, great analogy, Todd, this golden nugget. gets everyone you're learning, and you're teaching. That's the cycle is you have to understand and appreciate that, that as you teach Todd, you've taught so many people about the sales process video and being on video and things like that. You're also learning you're also getting feedback and as you've trained and taught and adopted individuals, how has that experience led you into the corporate environment where you're focused on corporate video and some of the transactions that go on there?
Todd Hartley 13:37
Yeah, what I've discovered is a lot of corporations are still stuck in the mindset of video is like a television commercial. They're applying yesterday's medium into today's world and that's a recipe for disaster. I'm particularly interested in how everybody on the team the marketing and the sales teams, grab or And rode together for the same goal and destination. Companies will be surprised how fast they get to that goal when everybody has the same destination vision. Like today I've got a national sales training for a large medical company.
You alluded to my work with Tony Robbins one of the things I'm doing for Tony's I'm training his clients, how to use the power of video in four stages, the first one being social, then your website, then how your salespeople are going to do it throughout the entire sales process. Which is like personalized video. The final stage is how you use video to ritualize and onboard your existing clients. You tee up the next sale while giving them massive exposure into what's going on behind the scenes and in doing so, companies do this like we have a $5 billion company brought us in and I train them in the coolest thing is they had their highest revenue in 14 years. A $5 billion company doesn't change trajectory like that.
Russ Johns 15:10
Todd Hartley 15:11
It's growing. It's completely different.
Russ Johns 15:14
Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating to me, because what you just said is that and this has been my experience, one of the things that I was attempting to do, at some point in time was develop a, essentially an internal radio station. The CEO could build culture around this. It's like having an internal broadcast where it would live stream to people. I built some interfaces and tried to promote it, and the corporations because they don't move very quickly.
They were not very eager to adopt something like this. It was like this whole new thing, and I just kept banging on the door and banging on the door. Now that we have bandwidth and bandwidth is not necessarily a roadblock or restriction. There's also an opportunity here for organizations to bring everybody to row together and move in the same direction and place their flag in the front of the line as they as they move their whole entire organization. I think the key is with video. Are you saying that same thing?
Todd Hartley 16:25
Yeah, I totally agree what By the way, I'm seeing, first of all, you are spot on. I'm seeing the resistance from companies. I also recognize that if you put the CEO on camera, and you have him talk to the team, it collapses the distance from the C suite to the entry level, and everybody starts understanding what the big vision is, and they get excited and part of the CEOs job is to be the internal and external cheerleader for the company. In this new world, where we're all broadcasters, now CEO also has to be the internal and external reporter for the company.
I love what you're doing. It's invaluable because that one interview can be cut down or that one podcast video episode could be cut down into multiple elements, including an email for external stakeholders or internal stakeholders. There's a variety of different ways that you can slice and dice that content into something that will be impactful for the overall organization.
Russ Johns 17:31
Yeah, and it makes a huge difference in what is being said, and communicated across the entire organization. I think that's what I think it could travel quickly. A good message or a challenging time that we're in right now can be reinforced by the vision that you're using to go forward. Because people are gonna have to adapt to it. Normal now, it's not necessarily what's going to happen. When we're back to normal. It's like, what's the normal now? What am I going to do with the business today? That allows me to make sure that we're doing things that are innovative, creative, and we're making a difference. We're standing out and making an impact.
Todd Hartley 18:19
Can we talk about the normal now for just a moment?
Russ Johns 18:22
Let's talk. Yes. Let's talk about the normal now.
Todd Hartley 18:27
I think a lot of people are confused by it. And that's because they didn't know what the old normal was because they weren't aware. By 2004 was the start of the content marketing revolution. That's the beginning of when everybody decided we have access to information at our fingertips. By 2018, we all had a strong preference to going on our own rabbit hole journeys, our research journeys before we make purchases. Before we want to talk with salespeople by 2000 tene HubSpot discovered that 82% of buyers, people were all trying to sell to say that they don't want to talk with a salesperson until they're ready to make a buying decision.
A lot of this is before COVID. Now we're in the middle of COVID. The new normal is access is 100%. denied, which means remote selling is the game. If you think life's going to go back to the old world, and you think it's going to be where, before the content marketing revolution where salespeople have access and prospects want to interact with salespeople, you're going to have a rude awakening when you go back to this new world because it's all going to be remote, or the vast majority of it will be
Russ Johns 19:44
A lot of people are sitting back working. I've been a remote worker for years and it's not unusual for me to make all purchases remotely and access everything. I need remotely and it's it's amazing to me to see how much resistance there is involved in other people saying, Oh, I can't wait to get back to work and it's like I am at work and I'm busy and I'm staying busy. Hey, Todd, I want to before we step into anything else, I want to make sure that we acknowledge some of the people that are in the room here.
Kathy Spooner says Good morning. How Are you doing Zen? Zen interesting Clear Channel crossing over? did a lot of tours for them in the mid 2000s. I got a they had a good idea that they didn't see the bandwidth boom for sure. Pratt did though. Andy. Andy just joined. Did you ask Todd about his nose? I really hope it's a cool story like a bear honor when cycling on the backroads.
Todd Hartley 20:54
Indeed a cool story is I love to get up in the morning and go on my runs in the desert here in Arizona. I probably have overdone it. I've got some skin cancer that's in the process of being removed.
Russ Johns 21:05
Yeah, the bear story is a good analogy. Then Gabriel, Gabriel is another live streamer that's very active. He does a show every night if you're not connected to Gabriel and also, how's everyone doing today? Good morning friends. How are all my fellow pirates? Thank you Gabriel. putting out some great stuff. Is it easy to get a gig a radio gig becoming a radio host?
Todd Hartley 21:34
You want me to tee off of it?
Russ Johns 21:36
Yeah, tee off on that.
Todd Hartley 21:37
All right. If you're expecting greatness, you need to understand that it's going to take defying the odds there are only six jobs in radio in any major market that I want. That would be and by the way, I'm not soliciting any radio jobs. I don't want any radio jobs. I've got the best job but if you want to be great, there's morning, midday and evening drive. Though on the number one station and then the number two stations, six total jobs you have a better chance Gabriel of showing up and getting a starting job and an NBA team because there's 12 jobs in every major city.
Russ Johns 22:19
Todd Hartley 22:21
That's, you know next to
Russ Johns 22:29
Did we lose him? Are you there Well, I don't know where Todd went. It looks like Todd
Todd Hartley 22:54
Russ Johns 22:55
Todd Hartley 22:58
Russ Johns 23:00
I can hear you. Give me a second, I'm gonna leave the room and come back. All right. We'll be right there. One of the things that we want to talk about is this is the way we are right now is the technical issues and the streaming ability and the opportunities there. They're always here. They're always coming back and forth. This is the way technology works. Here's the early adopters, this is the way and Todd as an early adopter has always understood how this works and operates. Thanks for your flexibility because Todd, walk us through, I want to shift gears and talk to about the futurist in you. Talk about the idea and the concept of what potential can unfold in the coming years, with or without COVID and how it's gonna how it how you see it coming together. What your intentions are in the market with video.
Todd Hartley 24:04
My first and primary intention is to serve others. I learned this as a waiter, if you can serve others with an open, loving heart, and you anticipate what their next need is, the future belongs to you, no matter what you do, people will always keep you in their life. The obvious things are office space like mine, where everybody's working remotely, all those prices are coming down right now. Because people are preferring to work from home and that's going to change a lot of things. I also know that the big trend of video and and at the beginning of every year like in December, every tech website writes an article about how video is going to be the the trend for the year but they've been doing this for like 15 years.
Russ Johns 24:50
Todd Hartley 24:50
The reality is it's going to be here forever and it's no longer trended is a way of doing business. Let me tell you what this this opportunity is. using video in business allows David's to crush Goliath. Because David can serve people and be more human, and anticipate their prospects next needs, grab their phone send off a video when 5g happens. I'm not even opening the door to the conspiracy theories though. I do find them interesting. Very interesting.
Russ Johns 25:23
Todd Hartley 25:23
Let's just talk about the possibilities of 5g. It's 20 times faster than your home Internet bandwidth, which means the amount of time that it would take you to download one Netflix on your home internet now you can download 20 Netflix movies.
Russ Johns 25:38
Todd Hartley 25:38
What is that going to do in the world of business? This is gonna allow individual salespeople to grab their phone, hold it in their holster like it's a gun and use it each and every time they need to provide maximum influence to a prospect. Answer questions, follow up, be human, and we're going to be texting videos. emailing large videos like we do PDFs now.
Russ Johns 26:05
Todd Hartley 26:05
That's going to change the whole dynamic because every single time I go human to human with a prospect, and I use video, and I text it to them within moments, I get back some type of notification of love. I love you guys, you're the best.
Russ Johns 26:22
Todd Hartley 26:23
My job easy and really, if you love serving people, and you center yourself around that the future is gonna belong to you.
Russ Johns 26:32
It's amazing for me and LinkedIn is one of the places that I hang on a lot. When I shoot a video in response, or write an introduction, or a follow up from a connection request, people are saying, Wow, that's the first time anybody's trying to video and thanking me for a connection or an interaction of any kind. It's amazing that now That's uncommon, however that's going to be I think the future and we're going to see more and more of it all the time and I like it because it's easy for me to pick up a phone and shoot a camera or turn the camera on and fire a video away. What about what you're doing now how can people reach out and connect with you and if you're not connected to Todd, tell them Ross sent you a nice connection.
Todd Hartley 27:31
Like my brother Ross, I'm all over LinkedIn. I love it. I think it is the essential platform for anybody that's trying to generate relationships and leads it's probably the new conference or business event is going down every day on LinkedIn. I'm always dropping knowledge bombs there I'm can be also found at Todd Hartley comm which is my speaker site or my company, wire buzz and every I have a podcast.
Right now I think we're on episode 240. Something of the podcast started in 2017. I'm dropping, I'm teaching what I'm learning throughout the week about how to become a better salesperson how to become a better entrepreneur or a marketer, using the power of video to Convince and Convert faster and that's called Video Marketing Mastery, and a lot of trainings for Tony Robbins.
Russ Johns 28:28
Fantastic, fantastic. Well, I could talk forever and I think it's really so it's amazing that you know, Jimmy Clem innovation over imitation every time Absolutely. Michael Evans is in the room. Say Hey, Michael, how you doing? I absolutely love that Todd. It's one of these things that we have an opportunity. What possibilities are available for finding revenue for a live stream like show like the #piratebroadcasts in terms of similar radio talk show advertising Marketing a live stream.
I had Mark LaCour on yesterday Todd and Mark LaCour is the owner and founder of the oil and gas network. His niche is in oil and gas industry. By having those eyeballs in those, those listeners in that audience, he's able to leverage that in, in a huge way. I think video niche, is gonna be the same way. We may have to have you back on another, another episode to talk about that in the future. You have any quick thoughts on that?
Todd Hartley 29:39
Well, in 2011, when my stepmom was diagnosed with breast cancer because I know how to go viral on the internet, I launched what became the largest video based breast cancer site where the leading experts are answering patient questions every day in video, and we generated 1400 videos and some 10s of millions of video views and millions of followers. If you service a niche, there are other people that need to get in front of that audience that will sponsor it.
Russ Johns 30:11
Todd Hartley 30:12
Before I knew it that that campaign was generating 300 to $500,000 a year, which doesn't suck, especially when you do it just to help, you know, support other women like your mother in law. Then within two years, my wife became the next breast cancer patient. I highly recommend people to find something that they're madly passionate about a way to help serve and to guide other people. If you do it really well, industry will jump in and support you which means you don't have to haul out industry you don't have to be their marketing their material word for word. They simply want to get out in front of your audience. Find out what that niches start making friends that industry is not the enemy.
Russ Johns 30:58
Todd Hartley 30:59
Start making money. Friends with the industry and figure out how you can help them achieve their goal. You can better serve your audience. And in doing so, amazing things happen in that process. I think that that covers your question.
Russ Johns 31:14
Yeah, absolutely. That that's a brilliant answer. Todd, it's always a pleasure to connect with interesting people doing interesting things. I know that our paths will cross more than once again,
Todd Hartley 31:26
You live like 20 minutes for me.
Russ Johns 31:28
I know, I know. Let's stay in touch. Let's stay in contact. I would love to have you back also on the on the show in the future episode and check in on the progress and maybe do an update on a regular basis to to make sure that we're staying in the pulse of what video can do. I'm thinking about doing some courses around just the simple starting process and getting that out. There may be some connections there that we can work with.
Todd Hartley 31:57
I'm cool with that does that. Can I ask you a question? So, in this format
Russ Johns 32:02
Todd Hartley 32:03
Two questions for you. What camera Are you using because I love your depth of field.
Russ Johns 32:09
I am using the Sony 6400 with a sigma 16 millimeter 1.4
Todd Hartley 32:17
Beautiful. You got such nice depth of field everybody should just look at Russ' depth of field for a second because with these cheap webcams everything in the background in focus, the human eye craves depth, like the human eye sees it so the way Russ has cameras set up our eye if we want to go into the background which looks interesting are I will automatically because it's blurry in the background, hold back over to Ross's face, which makes him the focal point of his entire video. I absolutely love it. Second question. Do you think people realize the power of going live on LinkedIn and what that does to your brand dress because throughout the day I get little notifications that my bro Russ is going live gives him right and it's like right here on my phone. It gives me the opportunity to say, Do I have time right now?
Russ Johns 33:13
Todd Hartley 33:13
Just hop in and watch live. That's invaluable because the entire world wants Top of Mind marketing and none better than LinkedIn live, because it happens you get a notification. Now is the time because at some point that might change.
Russ Johns 33:30
Yeah. Well, I the the short answer is I don't think a lot of people realize the advantages of going live in live streaming. I think we just crossed over a million podcasts. A lot of podcasts as you know, being a podcaster is that there's a lot of production that goes into it, a lot of podcasters up their game with, editor And intros and outros and bombs and all of that stuff. The one of the things that we can do as media content producers is with live stream your editing live. Then you take that content you can multipurpose it and you can flex
Todd Hartley 34:17
Six ways to Sunday
Russ Johns 34:18
Six ways to Sunday. Exactly. By the end of the day, I can broadcast in the morning and have a podcast in the evening. That's kind of the whole purpose of the #thepiratesyndicate is like, Hey, you get a group of people together that are doing great things and like you said, if you're sharing and you're carrying with an open heart it's like if you serve, you will be served. Right? It's one of those things that the people that are willing to take the chance, move the needle and take advantage of this opportunity are the ones that are going to stand out and be an
Todd Hartley 34:56
Armchair quarterbacks never get into the game. If you guys want to play put lace up Choosing start going. That's where all the fun is.
Russ Johns 35:03
Todd, it's a pleasure. I'm so glad that we got the opportunity to do this. I love what you're doing. It's really an opportunity for people to reach out. Get involved, get engaged. Like I always say #kindnessiscool. #smilesarefree. So you #enjoytheday. Thanks, Todd.
Todd Hartley 35:30
Thank you so much, Russ. Appreciate it.
Russ Johns 35:34
Thank you for joining the #piratebroadcast. If you found this content valuable. Please like comment and share it across your social media channels. I would love the opportunity to help others grow in their business. #Thepiratesyndicate is a platform where you show up we produce the show. It's that easy. If you want to be seen, be heard and be talked about. Join #thepiratesyndicate today.
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